KOSH [Kommunity Orientated Software Hardware] Weekly Summary Week Commencing: 09 January 1999 Number: 003 Mailing List: kosh-general In the mailing list this week, the following items were discussed. Please do not email the scribe regarding any of these topics, it is not his job to answer these questions, but merely to report the topics of conversation. If you have any queries about this summary, please email summaries@kosh.convergence.org, stating the Summary Number, and Mailing List Name, and he will try to answer your queries. a) Subject: Scripts Summary of Debate: Suggested we stop thinking about "text scripts" and "graphical scripts" and think of an object that can be viewed in any way u want which does the actions of a "script" We need a mind shift to look away from huge monolithic applications to look at small applications or small objects - that can be combined to do what the huge apps did but better. Scripting can in part be used for this. Hopefully KOSH will drop the "beginners" and "experts" thinking so we can get people to use their own computers in a creative way - unlike Linux which is considered for experts (or almost-experts). b) Subject: Layered plan Summary of Debate: Kristan Slack has half-written a layered plan on the KOSH Scripting Language (SL). Please supply him with ideas of features you would like for the SL, and send them direct to him at: kslack@uq.net.au with "Scripting Language" as the subject. c) Subject: Star Office Summary of Debate: Check out http://www.stardivision.com for a free-ish M$ office 97 compatible office suite. You can download it from their site and it supports OS/2, Solaris and Linux. Maybe we could get them to do a KOSH port? d) Subject: Slim binaries Summary of debate: If KOSH objects are to be written as slim binaries, the Oberon-based system could be used, or we could write a whole new language. Check out http://www.ics.uci.edu/~franz on the above which could prove useful. Some have expressed that Slim Binaries or ANDF type distribution is essential for multi-platform distributed computing to work. Others agree or disagree in varying proportions and mention the problems of licencing over a "distributed computer" with many different processors, apps and a varying number of users - what licence fee should KOSH charge in those circumstances? e) Subject: Marketing Summary of debate: We need to market the Kommunity and the KOSH concepts now to increase the numbers who take part. f) Subject: Non-monolithic Applications Summary of debate: We need a way to encourage people to contribute objects and mini apps to the KOSH sea without running into the stumbling block of licencing these mini-apps, although of course people should still get credit and royalties for their work - it should just be handled well. We need to avoid "Versionitis" when trying to work out what the latest versions of objects one has and needs (a bit like Amiga libraries on Aminet). Although someone has stated that a "Person" and an "Employee" are versions of a "Human" and KOSH should support the same kind of derivations/inheritance from an original, others disagree. Writing a rudimentary wordprocessor as an example of how to orchestrate KOSH objects would be useful. g) Subject: Snapshot UI Summary of debate: The ability to "snapshot" one's current OS including icons, set-up etc and have that converted to KOSH-OS and loadable could be included. h) Subject: Competition with M$ Summary of debate: It has been expressed that in the future M$ may perceive KOSH as competition; particularly, a hosted version on Win32 leading to a native version would directly compete with win32. i) Subject: TV Control Summary of debate: It should be possible to control videos from KOSH in an -accurate- way just from a quick on screen selection (no fussing with timers), oh and it should auto update to take account of changes to the schedule!. j) Subject: KOSH web site updates Summary of debate: Updates to the web site will be announced on this ML (scribe's note: they'll be copied up here as well in the summaries) k) Subject: Usage of the ML Summary of debate: Some feel that the kosh-general ML should be very specific in the areas it covers, other feel that it should be, well, more general - we have spent a lot of time just discussing the nature of the ML this week! l) Subject: Licencing KOSH Summary of debate: (scribe's note: some licencing issues are mentioned in "b" above) Perhaps a system similar to the licencing methods used by bands to radio stations via a central company could be used. People could pay a single fee to access KOSH on the www to use the objects and then royalties sent out to programmers in proportion to the downloads of their efforts. It would be important to ensure fair royalty payouts (unlike the way a certain industry is alleged to work). Perhaps a charge could be levied when the blueprint to combine objects into an app is downloaded (as well as the objects themselves). "Per use" charges for objects are not favoured. Perhaps a WG on all of the above is needed. KOSH could be developed on a few initial systems and then licenced out to other developers with a "developer friendly API and programming environment". Licencing fees could provide a financial boost for KOSH. m) Subject: Initial systems for hosted KOSH Summary of debate: The two target systems -most- people appear to favour are Win32 for numbers and to get acceptance of KOSH in the "mainstream" and Linux for the high user/scripter/programmer ratio and also as it is on many systems already However we must not deny Amigans, Macans, Beosans and "whateverelseans" access to KOSH. As well as considering the OSs we are to have KOSH hosted on, we should also consider the hardware companies, particularly those that supported the Amiga and think of supporting them (as well as the mainstream HW manufacturers). Perhaps the Java API, then anyone can run it who has a Java interpreter or compiler or the Java Virtual Machine, however performance could be awful. n) Subject: run-time KOSH Summary of debate: KOSH could have a stripped down version which purely allows an enclosed program to work (like MUI distributions at the moment on the Amiga). o) Subject: A message from Eric Summary of debate: Eric W Schwartz creator of Amy the Squirrel and Sabrina for the Amiga has been contacted and says he is interested in the prospect of a mascot character, and how can he be of help? Back on the "what should we have as a mascot" front, a squid or an octopus has been suggested and a lot of people seem to agree. p) Subject: Environmental and social considerations Summary of debate: It was suggested that KOSH could take the environmental (such as recycling old computer parts) and social (such as working conditions for those who manufacture KOSH) aspects of computer use into consideration during its development. This prompted a heated debate, with many varying opinions including those who felt that this is too political, those who agreed with the social part but not the environmental, those who thought this was not appropriate, those that mostly agreed and many other views. No real consensus was reached, but a suggestion to set up a WG on this sometime in the future was put forward. q) Subject: C++ Summary of debate: Perhaps we should stay away from C++ operator overloading and multiple inheritance due to name mangling and poor traceability. r) Subject: Preventing piracy Summary of debate: Developers could use a users public key to keep a check on piracy by requiring someone's public key before software is sent out. A copy of the key is kept and can be checked against pirated copies of the app when they are discovered. s) Subject: KOSH for all Summary of debate: Some concern over the mascot thing - must make it aimed at BOTH men and women, a bit like KOSH as a whole: we must get away from the "computers are for men" attitude of a lot of games publishers. We should drop the "beginners" and "experts" thinking so we can get people to use their own computers in a creative way - unlike Linux which is considered for experts (or almost-experts). t) Subject: A song for KOSH Summary of debate: Perhaps a catchy tune for KOSH as well as a mascot - but make it seriously optional, people can get annoyed with such things (eg: the "intel inside" jingle)